[ubuntu-us-mi] thoughts on a Penguicon panel

[Wolfger]

I've said this before on my blog, and I found myself saying it in a
comment to somebody on Planet Ubuntu the other day: "What would be
really nice is if there was some clear, concise, *objective*
explanation of the various desktops, and what their differences are."

To that end, I have an idea. It would be great if we could get a 3 or
4 person panel to talk, without degrading into a flame war, about just
what the heck is the difference between Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu (and
possibly Edubuntu). We could call it something like:
Toomanybuntus: how do I choose?

(that's also a sales trick... don't offer them a choice of Ubuntu or
not Ubuntu, offer them a choice of two or more different *buntus)

[Rob Duncan]

... I have an idea. It would be great if we could get a 3 or
4 person panel to talk, without degrading into a flame war, about just
what the heck is the difference between Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu (and
Toomanybuntus: how do I choose?

But how would you *tell* someone enough to decide between them? (well
maybe you could do that with Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Mythbuntu) It seems to
me you would at least want to show them some of the differences. Better
of course to have them try them. Maybe follow this up by having at least
one of each to try in the computer lounge?

[Ben Rousch]

This will turn into a circus when the Fluxbuntu and Elbuntu folks demand
equal speaking time. The man is already keeping them down by calling them
"Other Derivatives" instead of "Supported Derivatives."

What do we want? Window Manager justice! When do we want it? Now!

We're here! We're non-supported! Get used to it!

Post by Rob Duncan

... I have an idea. It would be great if we could get a 3 or
4 person panel to talk, without degrading into a flame war, about just
what the heck is the difference between Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu (and
Toomanybuntus: how do I choose?

But how would you *tell* someone enough to decide between them? (well
maybe you could do that with Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Mythbuntu) It seems to
me you would at least want to show them some of the differences. Better
of course to have them try them. Maybe follow this up by having at least
one of each to try in the computer lounge?
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[Wolfger]

Post by Rob Duncan
But how would you *tell* someone enough to decide between them? (well
maybe you could do that with Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Mythbuntu) It seems to
me you would at least want to show them some of the differences. Better
of course to have them try them. Maybe follow this up by having at least
one of each to try in the computer lounge?

Well, I'm not sure how to tell people the differences. Ideally we
could figure out a way, since that would be much more portable than a
show-n-tell, which would require at least one of each OS to be
running. I don't know... maybe there's a very good reason why the kind
of material I want doesn't already exist.

Post by Rob Duncan
This will turn into a circus when the Fluxbuntu and Elbuntu folks demand
equal speaking time. The man is already keeping them down by calling them
"Other Derivatives" instead of "Supported Derivatives."
What do we want? Window Manager justice! When do we want it? Now!
We're here! We're non-supported! Get used to it!

LOL. Well, there are certainly those options. But I think we want to
limit a newbie-oriented panel to officially-supported derivatives,
much as I prefer Fluxbox to Xfce myself...

[Craig Maloney]

Post by Wolfger
I've said this before on my blog, and I found myself saying it in a
comment to somebody on Planet Ubuntu the other day: "What would be
really nice is if there was some clear, concise, *objective*
explanation of the various desktops, and what their differences are."
To that end, I have an idea. It would be great if we could get a 3 or
4 person panel to talk, without degrading into a flame war, about just
what the heck is the difference between Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu (and
Toomanybuntus: how do I choose?

I think the Ubuntu choice should be secondary to a general discussion
about Ubuntu. Going in there with the idea of multiple Ubuntu
distributions could only be confusing and possibly counterproductive.

Just my $.02.

[Wolfger]

Post by Craig Maloney
I think the Ubuntu choice should be secondary to a general discussion
about Ubuntu.

Seeing as how so much of Ubuntu is GNOME specific, I'm not sure how
this thought process works. First show them the "one true distro", and
then those who haven't decided "I don't like it" can be told there's
an alternative (which they probably won't be interested in, since they
liked the mainstream)?

Post by Craig Maloney
Going in there with the idea of multiple Ubuntu
distributions could only be confusing and possibly counterproductive.

Well, there is something to be said for "too much choice" overwhelming
a great many people... but the desktop environment is such a HUGE part
of the user experience that if you only present one face, that may be
counterproductive as well. I, for example, can't stand GNOME, and
probably would not be using Linux today if that was how I'd first
encountered this OS.
(My first OS, Mandrake 7-ish, offered a choice of multiple desktop
environments at the login, and I tried them all, but I'm just freaky
that way)

As always... my opinion. Worth every penny you paid for it. ;-)

[Craig Maloney]

Post by Wolfger
Seeing as how so much of Ubuntu is GNOME specific, I'm not sure how
this thought process works. First show them the "one true distro", and
then those who haven't decided "I don't like it" can be told there's
an alternative (which they probably won't be interested in, since they
liked the mainstream)?

Well, yes, and no. Yes, show them the mainstream version, and then show
them that there are alternatives to that mainstream version out there.
So, if someone (like yourself) says "I like Ubuntu, but that interface
has to go. I like (KDE/XFCE) better, so now I'm thinking of running
(competing distro here)", we can bring in "oh, by the way, Ubuntu
supports KDE and XFCE, as well as LTSP".

Post by Wolfger
Well, there is something to be said for "too much choice" overwhelming
a great many people... but the desktop environment is such a HUGE part
of the user experience that if you only present one face, that may be
counterproductive as well. I, for example, can't stand GNOME, and
probably would not be using Linux today if that was how I'd first
encountered this OS.
(My first OS, Mandrake 7-ish, offered a choice of multiple desktop
environments at the login, and I tried them all, but I'm just freaky
that way)

Agreed. I think KDE has too many fiddly bits to it, personally, and find
GNOME matches more of my Macintosh-derived ethos. Choice is good, but in
the case of Ubuntu, you're already asking people to make a choice
between whatever they're currently running and Ubuntu. Confusing that
with K/X/Ed/who-knows-what-else, and having the participants drink from
the firehose of choice may have people sitting back in their chairs and
deciding not to decide on any Ubuntu at all.

Ultimately, we need to decide what the thrust of the panel will be. Are
we selling Ubuntu, preaching to the converted Linux masses, or doing
something entirely different. Ultimately that should decide what the
focus of the presentation will be.

[Wolfger]

Post by Craig Maloney

Post by Wolfger
Well, there is something to be said for "too much choice" overwhelming
a great many people... but the desktop environment is such a HUGE part
of the user experience that if you only present one face, that may be
counterproductive as well. I, for example, can't stand GNOME, and
probably would not be using Linux today if that was how I'd first
encountered this OS.

Agreed. I think KDE has too many fiddly bits to it, personally, and find
GNOME matches more of my Macintosh-derived ethos. Choice is good, but in
the case of Ubuntu, you're already asking people to make a choice
between whatever they're currently running and Ubuntu. Confusing that
with K/X/Ed/who-knows-what-else, and having the participants drink from
the firehose of choice may have people sitting back in their chairs and
deciding not to decide on any Ubuntu at all.

OK, now imagine for a moment that Kubuntu is the mainstream distro,
and Ubuntu is the alternative. How would you feel then about selling
the distro with the desktop you personally dislike? :-)
Just trying to illustrate where I'm coming from. Hard for me to "sell
Ubuntu" to anybody when I couldn't take it for more than 2 weeks
myself (I made a sincere effort to try to like GNOME...)

It's that confusion that you're talking about that I wanted to try to
reduce by coming up with some clear way to explain the differences. Of
course, I'm not sure how to do that, exactly, so you're probably
right.

[Craig Maloney]

Post by Wolfger
OK, now imagine for a moment that Kubuntu is the mainstream distro,
and Ubuntu is the alternative. How would you feel then about selling
the distro with the desktop you personally dislike? :-)

Easy... I would have stuck with Fedora. :)

<snip>

Post by Wolfger
It's that confusion that you're talking about that I wanted to try to
reduce by coming up with some clear way to explain the differences. Of
course, I'm not sure how to do that, exactly, so you're probably
right.

Trust me, I'm in no means slighting those who prefer something other
than GNOME, but the default distribution, and the one that is on the
main page is GNOME. I'm not opposed to discussing KUbuntu at al
(actually, it's the first version of KDE that didn't make me want to
spit bile out of my eyesockets) but I think we should talk about it and
the other offshoots _after_ discussing the main distribution. If we're
handing out Live CDs at the event (especially ones via ShipIt), they'll
have the GNOME distribution on them by default (unless you can order
KUbuntu and XUbuntu, but I'm not an expert on this). I think we should
focus on that first, and then when the audience is hooked, show them the
other really cool things you can do with the other versions.

Again, my $.02. :)

[t jagoda]

I concur with Craig's take on the panel.


Trevor

Post by Craig Maloney

Post by Wolfger
OK, now imagine for a moment that Kubuntu is the mainstream distro,
and Ubuntu is the alternative. How would you feel then about selling
the distro with the desktop you personally dislike? :-)

Easy... I would have stuck with Fedora. :)
<snip>

Post by Wolfger
It's that confusion that you're talking about that I wanted to try to
reduce by coming up with some clear way to explain the differences. Of
course, I'm not sure how to do that, exactly, so you're probably
right.

Trust me, I'm in no means slighting those who prefer something other
than GNOME, but the default distribution, and the one that is on the
main page is GNOME. I'm not opposed to discussing KUbuntu at al
(actually, it's the first version of KDE that didn't make me want to
spit bile out of my eyesockets) but I think we should talk about it and
the other offshoots _after_ discussing the main distribution. If we're
handing out Live CDs at the event (especially ones via ShipIt), they'll
have the GNOME distribution on them by default (unless you can order
KUbuntu and XUbuntu, but I'm not an expert on this). I think we should
focus on that first, and then when the audience is hooked, show them the
other really cool things you can do with the other versions.
Again, my $.02. :)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Maloney (craig at decafbad.net) http://decafbad.net
Work Hard. Rock Hard. Eat Hard. Sleep Hard. Grow Big.
Wear Glasses If You Need 'Em. -- The Webb Wilder Credo
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